WEBVTT

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Good afternoon.

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Or good morning to wherever you may be zooming in from.

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I'm Rachel [unknown].

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The editorial communications manager for the American craft council,

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part of our editorial team and the coordinator behind the American

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craft forum series.

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I'm so pleased to welcome you all to this American craft forum

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program.

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In association with our quarterly publication,

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American craft magazine.

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I'm speaking to you today from my home in apple valley, Minnesota.

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And representing the offices of the American craft council in

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Minneapolis,

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which are both located on the traditional ancestral and contemporary

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lands.

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At the Dakota and Ojibwe people.

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This place carries a complicated and layered history.

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In the thousands of years,

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the Dakota people have been in relationship and kinship with the land

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here.

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And in the several hundred years since European settlers colonized the

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land that the state of Minnesota now occupies.

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United States land seizure was a project of destruction that denied

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the Dakota free and unhindered access to land that fundamentally

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shapes their identity and lives.

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We pay tribute to the Dakota, Andrew.

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And invite you to consider the land on which you live and the

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confluence of legacies that bring you to stand where you are.

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Particularly through critical reflection and conversation with your

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own community.

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Fostering conversation and community are at the heart of ACC is

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mission.

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And American craft serves this one of the most vital contributions and

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service to this mission and hopefully to the field of craft and

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American culture.

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Our world continues to change.

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And so we continue to do what we can to meet this moment.

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This year American craft magazine celebrated its 80th anniversary.

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And we are using that time to reflect on when and where this

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publication has been at its best.

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Read it in the present moment, shining a light on the diversity,

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resilience, beauty,

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and impact of American craft and its makers in 2021.

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We embrace the year in 4, 3, 4 themes.

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Nourish flourish, kinship.

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And wonder.

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We started the year needing some nourishment.

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We reached for opportunities to flourish.

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And now we look to the communities that we've built.

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And those that have built us.

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In order to dream big for the future before us.

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Before I dive into the program in my introduction.

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I just want to thank the ACC staff, particularly our editors.

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Karen Olson and Roseanne Perrera.

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Our amazing marketing team and our it guru Jason Samuel's.

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The American craft council is a national nonprofit organization.

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As such,

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I would also like to give a big shout out to our donors and members

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who make programs like this possible and a very special thank you to

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the Minnesota state arts board and Wingate charitable foundation for

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their generous support.

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A few technical and logistical reminders,

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please make sure that your cameras are off.

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And your audio is muted for the program and conversation.

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We encourage you to participate in the talk via the chat feature and

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drop any comments or questions there.

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Closed captioning is available during this program.

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On the bottom of your zoom screen. You'll see.

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At close caption symbol checking that flat button will turn this

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feature on and off the program will also be recorded.

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And available for future viewing.

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In the fall issue,

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which is all about the ways that we find kinship with ourselves,

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with others and with the objects around us,

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we were so pleased to feature an incredible story of collaboration

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across cultures.

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Across mediums across disciplines.

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For what is collaboration? True collaboration.

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If not a form of kinship.

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As writer, Angela Rasta.

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And finds out through interviews with this.

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Don Barnes art fellow, Greg Moore.

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And the four chefs in residence at the stone barn center for food and

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agriculture collaboration is a multi-faceted relationship that

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requires effort.

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Communication.

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And mutual respect.

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Important elements in any relationship between people and made evident

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in these creative collaborations.

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Today we are thrilled to present this conversation between Sarah mist,

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Greg Moore, and one of those incredibly talented chefs, Omar Tate.

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As a microcosm of what successful collaboration can look like.

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And feel like.

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Now to help us dive more deeply into this concept and to introduce us

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to our two speakers.

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I am so pleased to welcome the fantastic Angela Aston.

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Quinn bite to turn on her camera now for a quick introduction.

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You'll remember Angela as the writer behind our powerful state of

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craft peace from the summer issue on earth.

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The craft scape.

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Angela is a Minneapolis based writer and editor and the digital

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director of experience, life magazine.

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Progressive whole health publication,

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where she also served as senior editor for health and nutrition.

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From 2005 to 2014.

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She has also worked as a senior editor for the acne reader.

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And more than a plate,

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her feature story in the fall 2021 issue of American craft.

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She tells the story of Greg Morris collaborations with chefs,

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including Omar Tate at stone barn center for food and agriculture.

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Please join me in welcoming Angela.

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Thank you.

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Thanks so much, Rachel.

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I'm really looking forward to this conversation between Omar Tate and

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Greg Moore.

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And when I first interviewed them for the American craft piece on chef

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Sarah MIS collaborations,

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I figured there'd be big differences between them all. My, as a chef,

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Greg's a Potter.

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But I was really struck by the synergies between them.

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Not only are they both artists,

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but they're both researchers and readers and just very thoughtful

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people.

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So I'd love to introduce Omar, Tate, Omar,

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if you want to turn your camera on.

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Omar is a chef artist and co-founder of honeysuckle projects,

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a multi-faceted food company that focuses on the nuance cultures and

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cuisines of the black diaspora.

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All my has emerged as a visionary and a leading thinker on the

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restaurant industries, cultural development as a whole,

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he specifically focuses on race and ethnicity to tear down structural

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barriers is through his practice in honeysuckle.

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His pop-up cultural concept in 2020 honeysuckle,

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Lou was named pop-up of the year by Esquire magazine. And this year,

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time magazine named Omar as one of the 100 innovators to watch as part

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of their time. 100 next list. Welcome Omar.

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Thank you for having me, Angela.

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And then I'd also love for Greg Moore to turn his camera on so I can

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introduce him.

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Greg is an artist designer and educator.

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His studio practice explores the relationship between ceramics and new

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media drawing from historical foundations while questioning and

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investigating perceptions of the ceramic field.

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His current work includes ceramic tableware and mixed media sculpture

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that examines the practices of gardening, farming, cooking,

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and eating.

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More received his bachelor of arts degree in geosciences from Skidmore

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college and his master of fine arts degree from the New York state

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college of ceramics at Alfred university. He.

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He is also professor of visual.

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Forming arts and director of the ceramics program at Acadia university

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and welcome Greg.

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I thanks for having me.

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Well,

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before we get into the specific piece is the two of you collaborated

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on. I would just love to start with a general question.

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Omar,

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when you participated in the chef in residence program at stone barns.

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You created a multi-course meal that reflects the black American

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experience from the transatlantic slave trade to police brutality.

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And obviously the procreate, the focus of the program was on food.

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But when we talked,

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you said that collaborating with Greg ended up being your favorite

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part of the entire residency.

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And I just wondered if you could talk a little about why.

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Well, first I want to.

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Well, thank you. American craft council.

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And thank you, Greg. And.

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To Angela, but you know,

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we didn't set out to create a menu that the explored.

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The rest of that experience that way through eight, 10 courses.

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It just kind of happened that way.

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I write poetry a lot.

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And a lot of the themes that were Exactive and the menu came from.

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Poetry that I've written literature that I've read.

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Research that I've done.

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And immediately when I met Greg.

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Understanding that that's how he approaches his work.

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It was really through the many conversations that we've had about

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things that were unrelated, largely unrelated to.

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For the extra residence T itself.

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Really formed.

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We really formed a unique bond that I think, you know,

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you've mentioned that, you know,

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These will be very contrasting or,

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or maybe polarizing perspectives me as a chef and Greg.

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The ceramicist and steward.

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Steward in our world.

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I think that I'm just like the anti chef.

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Where very much downplay the food aspects of my work,

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because the food is really deflect the platform for more things.

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I'm going to vessel more things to be.

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I explored.

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And Greg.

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You had talked about, do you feel.

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You know,

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do you feel the same way about your role as a Potter that you downplay

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him? You've talked about.

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How it's not about beauty for you.

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You're trying to get to sort of start from a deeper meaning. I mean,

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do you resonate with what Omar is saying in terms of how you

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approaches.

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Food and as a chef and how you approach your art.

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Yeah, very much so.

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I think.

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And that was.

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I think presented immediately when we first met and started talking,

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was that it was really about the ideas. I mean,

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the objects and the actual.

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Food.

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The particulars of, of both came much later.

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We kind of got.

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Lost in exploring ideas first.

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And so, and I, and I, and hopefully we can illustrate that today,

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that.

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The work.

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The collaboration and the works as a result of that collab,

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collaboration really forefront those concepts. Hopefully.

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Where the, the ceramic object and the food.

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Tell a complete story.

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That's great. And I know, you know, one thing you said, oh, my,

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in terms of telling that complete story is that.

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You know,

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as a chef I'm part of this residence program was that they had the

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resources to hire Greg and to, you know,

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have all these things that usually chefs don't have.

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At their fingertips, but that as an artist,

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you've really always wanted to create a 360 experience for someone

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who's eating your food. It's not just about the food, but there's.

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You know, you were trying to create a story.

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And can you talk a little about how working with Greg helped you get

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closer to that 360 experience?

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Yeah, I, before the stolen part of the residency.

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I think that I've made maybe one or two attempts of using plateware or

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ceramics as a way to contextualize that story for very particular

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dishes.

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And it was actually shut Dan who the connected.

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Greg and I,

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who just happened to live pretty much in the same city where I'm about

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a 20 minute drive from the studio.

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And he asked us to connect well before the actual residency,

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which I think afforded us the opportunity to,

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for the best idea that we were able to.

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To explore.

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I think the more than more than anything in the conversation.

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Greg and I had.

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He helped me to really understand how expansive.

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Ceramics and, and the practice that he applies to his craft.

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But his work.

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This is much, much more vast than I ever anticipated.

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The first dish.

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That I'd ever.

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That I'd ever done where I was trying to use a plate or a forever.

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It was called remnants on the stuff at the stoop. And.

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I bought the closest thing that I could find that the black slate or

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concrete from this.

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I can't remember the name of the store,

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but it's like the Dutch version of Ikea does.

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But there's like three of them in.

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It's like Ikea means five below is a weird door.

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But they had these random slate plates and we bought

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200 of them are very cheap and we served the crab

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was a piece of the Philadelphia Tribune on it.

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And just to kind of like, keep it short, we.

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It was called Brenda's on the Southwest. Still beat.

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Because it's supposed to represent the things that are left after a

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blood party, but also within the scope of the plate.

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We're exploring how migration patterns show up in modern

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places of joy and black.

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So that was that plate.

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And I thought that that was the plate that Greg maybe first saw of my

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work and that might've been the kickoff of our conversations.

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Yeah. And let's, let's bring up the first slide actually,

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because the first slide is a dish called black lung Therese.

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Terrarium for black breasts. And this was sort of, you know, the,

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the dish regimens on a south Philly stupid,

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you just mentioned OMI was kind of the precursor to this dish, right?

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So.

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You know, you got,

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you got the closest plate where you could get from the store in

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New York, but now when you guys connected.

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What we're looking at is, oh,

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my you've talked about how the dish you created.

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You know, kind of represented black lives lost in conflict in 2020.

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And so the two of you, Greg.

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And Greg and Omar together made a plaster cast of the actual sidewalk

00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:31.000
in front of your mother's house in west Philadelphia.

00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:35.000
Can you talk a little about how this idea came together? You know,

00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:38.000
Greg had you done this kind of casting work before in, in, and what,

00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:40.000
you know, what position that place kind of.

00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:41.000
Represents in your work as well.

00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:43.000
Sure. Yeah.

00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:46.000
I mean, I will just maybe add to it. Omar said when Dan introduced us,

00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.000
it was months before you started cooking there. And.

00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:53.000
And having that time to have the conversation develop was.

00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:54.000
Extremely valuable.

00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.000
I don't think this would have happened without that luxury of time.

00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:03.000
The.

00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:11.000
The cast of the sidewalk did emerge from the remnants piece.

00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:14.000
Or dash, I should say that Omar is talking about,

00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:17.000
which I think it was the first visual of your food.

00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:19.000
That I had seen.

00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:23.000
And I was immediately hooked about that idea of.

00:15:23.000 --> 00:15:27.000
Serving food on.

00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:40.000
Well, you were using slate, but it represented the stoop.

00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:44.000
And I I've been making the dishes for

00:15:44.000 --> 00:15:47.000
blue hill at stone barns for some years. And one of the,

00:15:47.000 --> 00:15:50.000
one of the dishes that I make is actually a cast of the farm.

00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.000
And at the start, the farm at stone barns,

00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:54.000
and I've done it in several different seasons.

00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:55.000
So different temperatures.

00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:59.000
And the soil looks different every time it's it's been cast and then

00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:00.000
food.

00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.000
Returns to the, to that surface from which it's grown.

00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:07.000
Yeah in its presentation at the table. So.

00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:20.000
Omar's dish and the visual of Omar's dish.

00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:24.000
And the idea behind it got us to thinking about taking that

00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:27.000
concept of casting the surface of the earth on, at the farm,

00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:29.000
in that case and applying it.

00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:35.000
To a more.

00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:39.000
Appropriate texture and cast to the idea that's in the food

00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:41.000
dish. So the ceramic dishes, food dish.

00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:42.000
Being a vet, same locale.

00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.000
And so this is us.

00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:48.000
Casting one of the three, we did three different.

00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.000
Dishes in a triptych of.

00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:57.000
That you see on your screen, on the right.

00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:01.000
And you serve the same dish on each of those

00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:02.000
casts, right? Omar.

00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:06.000
Yeah.

00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:07.000
It was pretty much the same economy.

00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:09.000
It kind of changed dependent upon what was available from the

00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:10.000
greenhouse at stone barns.

00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:16.000
But for the most part with a salad.

00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:19.000
Of several different lettuces, herbs, a radish,

00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:28.000
and then underneath the entire salad word chicken.

00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.000
Chicken bones.

00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.000
So the idea about the plate as it's multi-layered in that

00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:34.000
one, there's the,

00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:37.000
there's the contrast between of what takes place in Tarrytown,

00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:38.000
New York.

00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.000
And stolen Barnes and what type of place and urban sectors throughout

00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:42.000
America.

00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.000
Specifically here in Philadelphia.

00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:48.000
And that there's this upstream value of the life that rose

00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:49.000
on the.

00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:52.000
And the soil and every town and stone markers represents agricultural

00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:57.000
and a whole.

00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.000
In the way that we perceive it romantically,

00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.000
but then also like not romantically,

00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:02.000
the life that exists in urban sectors,

00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:05.000
largely where black folks and people of color exist.

00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:06.000
And so I wanted to show.

00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:07.000
I think,

00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:10.000
but I didn't realize this until you said a grid that because the plate

00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:11.000
themselves.

00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.000
Are all a singular tone.

00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.000
Was very texture that it kind of makes everything equal and everything

00:18:16.000 --> 00:18:19.000
equitable on a surface. And it's really truly the salad.

00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:20.000
That.

00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:25.000
That that works in contrast of that equitability.

00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.000
And so the salad and the chicken bones themselves represent a light

00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:29.000
force in the black body on the plate.

00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:30.000
And the bones.

00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.000
On the bottom represent a spiritual representation of life that takes

00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:34.000
place.

00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:36.000
Funeral rituals.

00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:40.000
It's all ceremonies particular to the new.

00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.000
And then voting practices, but then the, the,

00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:48.000
the greenery of the salad itself.

00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.000
And the chicken fried mushrooms that were also in the salad represent

00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:53.000
the life force that exists in the urban reality of black folks.

00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:54.000
And a sector.

00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:58.000
Of of America where we didn't choose to be, or we're forced to be.

00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:02.000
Prior to, prior to the great depression.

00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:05.000
Somewhere around 90% of African-Americans live in the south.

00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:09.000
Primarily one farmland.

00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:11.000
And this plate represents that removal and the continue to dozens of

00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.000
black life on earth.

00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:29.000
And were you able, you know, we talked about the scenario interview.

00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:30.000
Oh, my like, you know, that, I didn't know.

00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.000
There were chicken bones below that dish until you told me,

00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.000
were you able to see diners and see how they reacted both to the plate

00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.000
and the word Pooka as well as when they're eating a salad and they get

00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:40.000
to chicken bones, like,

00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.000
did people know what to do with it or make of it? You.

00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.000
Is there a feedback that you can share with us?

00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:45.000
Sure. Yeah. The.

00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:47.000
The feedback. Most people.

00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:50.000
We're like surprised to find tick and bones.

00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:53.000
After they finish eating this lovely, beautiful bountiful salad.

00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:55.000
There's this like marker of, of death.

00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:58.000
Right or just not existence of life.

00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:02.000
And every single ceramic and the triptych has a marker of the human

00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:09.000
hand or human intentionality.

00:20:09.000 --> 00:20:13.000
And the plate selected the name Pooka just represents a person who

00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.000
rolled their own name or any person who could write their own name

00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.000
and, and assert their existence.

00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:20.000
There's a cigarette butt and one of the plates, I think it's the,

00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:23.000
the plate third from the top or furthest from the bottom.

00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:26.000
However, you're looking at it.

00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:29.000
There's a cigarette amongst foil and algae and rocks and concrete.

00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:35.000
And then the lane of breakfast of the other.

00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:38.000
Example of, of the human hand and,

00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.000
and in urban settings where like the life, the life force,

00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:42.000
the natural life force.

00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:43.000
Bye [unknown].

00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:44.000
We're in grass.

00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.000
Finds a way amongst.

00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:47.000
Human manipulation. And then on top of that, this.

00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:51.000
The conflict of human life that takes place in the urban deceptive.

00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:53.000
Barfly as expressed in the menu here,

00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:56.000
the where ingredients would be our names of those.

00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:00.000
We lost from police violence, state violence against black.

00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:06.000
Great. And then it actually looked like a tray.

00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.000
Yeah, I actually looked fogged up. Was that the,

00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.000
was that the steam from the chicken fried mushrooms or how did you

00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:11.000
achieve that? Look.

00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:12.000
Oh, yeah.

00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:13.000
It was sustained from the chicken fried mushrooms.

00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.000
When they hit the table,

00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:17.000
the terrain was actually fogging when they took it off, it was almost.

00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:19.000
As if the dish was hailing its own breasts.

00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:20.000
Which was another thing that kind of just happened.

00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:23.000
That it was not planned at all. It was just, it just happened.

00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:44.000
Great.

00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.000
Yeah, I'd love to go to the next side,

00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:49.000
SegWit and other dishes that you guys collaborated on the dishes

00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:53.000
called notes on a black pantry and wait for their dessert

00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:56.000
there. And it's served in plateware. That's inspired by colon aware,

00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:59.000
which is a type of earthenware pottery that was made in used by

00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:00.000
enslaved people.

00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:01.000
During the colonial period.

00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:04.000
And so what you see there is that that first part of the slide is

00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:12.000
actually Omar, I assume.

00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:13.000
That's your hand.

00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.000
And you talked about how you read a book called high on the hog.

00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.000
And there were just a few lines about cologne aware.

00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:19.000
I think you also mentioned that when you and Greg first talked,

00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:21.000
you both almost mentioned it at the same time.

00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:23.000
Like have you heard of Collin aware and you both broke out into a big

00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:26.000
smile and realized like you were going to be friends belong beyond the

00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:28.000
residency. So can you talk a little about,

00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:29.000
and I know you've said that if you.

00:22:29.000 --> 00:22:30.000
You know, if you've ever had a restaurant,

00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:32.000
this is sort of the inspiration you wanted for all the dishes,

00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.000
but yeah.

00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:37.000
Can you talk a little about the inspiration behind con aware and,

00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:39.000
and why you chose to serve this dish?

00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:40.000
And fragments.

00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:43.000
This is just another example here where like my thinking was just like

00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:46.000
very, very direct and very linear my chef framework in that.

00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:48.000
I learned about Justin those few lines that are underlined there and

00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.000
the book high on the hog. I learned about Colona,

00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:57.000
where I did research on colon aware and I, I.

00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:01.000
Almost wanted to just replicate what I assume, Colona wearable.

00:23:01.000 --> 00:23:03.000
It looked like whole and intact,

00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:07.000
but it wasn't really until the conversations that I had with Greg who

00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:08.000
really respected, I mean,

00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:10.000
I'll let you speak on this more. He, he really respected.

00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.000
The fragmentation of it and thought that that was,

00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:15.000
that was the whole, and after.

00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:17.000
After hearing him speak on that, it just.

00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:20.000
It opened up a whole new world of possibility the ethic we're going to

00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.000
continue to work.

00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:22.000
Through and towards.

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.000
As much as we can, but yeah, I would love for you to touch on.

00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:27.000
Why you thought that was important?

00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:28.000
The fragmentation.

00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:31.000
Yeah.

00:23:31.000 --> 00:23:37.000
Well, I think.

00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:39.000
I really do remember that in my studio,

00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:42.000
we almost said the word cloud aware at the same time.

00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:45.000
Like we were thinking about it.

00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.000
As we were discussing the first piece, I think this emerged second in,

00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:49.000
in.

00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:51.000
So the order is actually accurate.

00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.000
In terms of how we develop these or how we consider them in

00:23:53.000 --> 00:24:01.000
development.

00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:03.000
And I actually, I,

00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.000
I have made and continue to make place that look broken,

00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:07.000
but for different reasons,

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:13.000
And.

00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:16.000
Just sort of on a visual level.

00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:20.000
I like the exposure of a broken edge. I like how.

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:24.000
It gives the viewer, the diner access into the object or the dish.

00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:34.000
That's that they're not able to get, if it's intact.

00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:37.000
And Angela, you mentioned my background in geology and,

00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.000
and I think it has a lot to do with that.

00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:42.000
This sort of learning about a material through the way it breaks.

00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.000
And learning about landscape through the cuts in that landscape.

00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.000
And being able to sort of see the strategic graphy.

00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:53.000
Geology or geography. And, and so that, I mean, that's more of a.

00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:57.000
Aesthetic concern.

00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:01.000
And I think where this piece really started to develop was thinking

00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:03.000
about it.

00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:07.000
Through the concept of.

00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:11.000
Taking fragments and purposefully making them whole

00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:12.000
again.

00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:14.000
Bye.

00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:18.000
Being able to, to use the different parts of.

00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:27.000
The what looks like a broken dish, even though it's intentional.

00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.000
And it to come back together at the table.

00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.000
And I think what's really exciting is the way Omar uses.

00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:35.000
Flavor to do that. It's visual texture through the food,

00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:38.000
but also flavor.

00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:42.000
And, you know, in, in a real way, it's an opportunity for.

00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:46.000
The person who's eating out of the dish to then engage with it.

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:49.000
Physically and.

00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:52.000
I wonder Omar, if you could talk about the spice.

00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:56.000
In the shard.

00:25:56.000 --> 00:25:59.000
And how, how the person eating.

00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:00.000
Off of off of this place.

00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:02.000
This plate.

00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:07.000
Engaged with it.

00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:16.000
And become became part of the narrative in that way.

00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.000
So the thing about knows from a black pantry, it's a,

00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:22.000
it's an ongoing investigation. It's almost always a salad.

00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:24.000
That I've done several times in different seasons using different

00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:28.000
ingredients in this case.

00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.000
The photo that you see in the bottom left of the screen,

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.000
there is a still life.

00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:37.000
So to speak of the kitchen,

00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:39.000
counter of different things about wife cope.

00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:40.000
So the dish itself.

00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:56.000
Are fragmented.

00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.000
Pieces of that, of that kitchen counter made into a functional,

00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.000
just a very practical salad,

00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:06.000
a top these broken shards and the fragmentation of lack of

00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:09.000
experiences with the unexplored here through Kwon aware.

00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:11.000
And that Quan aware is a material culture.

00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:15.000
That's been recently being rediscovered and plantation

00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:17.000
archeological digs throughout the Mid-Atlantic region and Southern

00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:18.000
regions of the country.

00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:20.000
And none of them being found whole.

00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.000
I think it was the agreed that mentioned that maybe we should keep

00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:23.000
them.

00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:27.000
Keep them that intact because that truly is the story of cologne

00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:28.000
aware.

00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:29.000
And.

00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:30.000
When you mentioned that to me,

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:32.000
it really made me think about going back to the book high on the hall.

00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.000
I don't know how it only came together through fragmented pieces of

00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:38.000
black history.

00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:40.000
The cabin spice, which is the spice that's on the broken shard.

00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:43.000
There was placed on the table when this course came out,

00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:45.000
but then remained throughout the dinner until dessert.

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:47.000
Because that that fragmented experience.

00:27:47.000 --> 00:27:51.000
That the enslaved head of actually, they only had a sliver.

00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:55.000
Of a truth human experience.

00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:57.000
Remove them from several freedoms.

00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.000
One of which is just a freedom to even season your food in a way that

00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:01.000
you like.

00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:04.000
And you were also saying these are spices to the irony of spices that

00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:14.000
came over as part of the transatlantic slave trade.

00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:16.000
But then, you know, that they weren't really allowed to use it,

00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:18.000
that they would use in secret in cabins or something.

00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:22.000
So the whole idea of having it out on the table in open to freely kind

00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:23.000
of use as you want it to use.

00:28:23.000 --> 00:28:24.000
Exactly. Exactly.

00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.000
And notes on a black pantry. I remember, you know, it was,

00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:31.000
you said something interesting about notes on a bike pantry.

00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:34.000
Which is also that part of this dish is that you realize when you

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:35.000
first became a chef,

00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:38.000
you were kind of not going to the ingredients that were in your,

00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:40.000
you know, like the sort of ingredients you grew up with.

00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:43.000
They were, I mean, there was a.

00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:45.000
The thing about kitchens is that it's not even,

00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.000
it's not even about it's beyond racism. To me,

00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:51.000
it's almost like being in the military.

00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:52.000
And, and fine dining kitchens.

00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:56.000
It's just about every person have having a very specific function.

00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:57.000
It's almost like everyone's a machine.

00:28:57.000 --> 00:29:00.000
And so the idea of identity and culture and ethnicity.

00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:03.000
Ethnicity is stripped from every single person.

00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:08.000
And the kitchen.

00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:10.000
Unless you are a European male,

00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:13.000
because primarily that is the cuisine and those who have been exactly

00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:14.000
the same.

00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:22.000
How does the clean, closing up those kitchens?

00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.000
And many ways, whether it's historically or contemporarily,

00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:28.000
that's just how it, how it functions. So for me to use dried spices,

00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:29.000
like dried chili peppers,

00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:32.000
or tried garlic or dried onion powder or things like that.

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:35.000
What's your staples that my mom used or all matriarchs in my family

00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:38.000
use and continue to use while cooking were frowned upon.

00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.000
And the me re reapproach like approach.

00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:44.000
Those items again.

00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:47.000
And then using them as a springboard for creativity was how those from

00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:52.000
the blind pantry started. So.

00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:54.000
I love that too. So integrating, you know,

00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:56.000
integrating your chefy sorta side, I mean, you know, with this,

00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.000
like with your experience growing up and like bringing that together

00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:04.000
at the table, too.

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.000
And, you know, there's,

00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:08.000
there's a lot of talk right now about authenticity and who can make

00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:11.000
art. And I'm struck by the fact that, you know, Omar, you conceived,

00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:27.000
you ended up conceiving of a menu that reflects.

00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:29.000
This black American experience. And you collaborated with you,

00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:30.000
Greg who's white,

00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.000
who actually made these dishes inspired by colon aware,

00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:34.000
which was made by enslaved people.

00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:37.000
Do either of you have ideas about who can make certain types of art or

00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:41.000
how maybe the process of collaborating across, you know,

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.000
not just disciplines, but racism,

00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:45.000
ethnicities might fit into this conversation or.

00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.000
Based on your collaboration together.

00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:48.000
And Greg, you can go first.

00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:51.000
I was going to say we've had long conversations about this Omar NAI.

00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:52.000
And.

00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:54.000
I don't know if we answered any of the questions,

00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:55.000
but we definitely have discussed them.

00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:57.000
And I, and continue to.

00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:58.000
I don't know. I think.

00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:00.000
I would say that the.

00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:02.000
Maybe that's not very satisfying answer, but that this work.

00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:10.000
Wouldn't.

00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:13.000
Be it wouldn't emerge. It wouldn't take shake if,

00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:15.000
if either vests were in part of this collaboration.

00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.000
And I think to the nature of collaboration, that back and forth.

00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.000
You know that I think.

00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:20.000
We've been talking about.

00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:23.000
The term collaboration and the use or misuse of that term.

00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:28.000
And the idea it keeps coming up that.

00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:31.000
True collaborations have a paradynamic. That is.

00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:37.000
Equal or equitable.

00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:40.000
And I think that's true with,

00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:42.000
with the work that Omar and I have been doing together.

00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:44.000
As, as to authorship.

00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:47.000
I think.

00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:54.000
Intentionally, none of the work is signed.

00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:57.000
So it's not either of our names. Aren't, aren't on them.

00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:00.000
And we're going to get to the last piece that, that does have a mark.

00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:01.000
On it.

00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:02.000
But it's not either of our signatures.

00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:07.000
And I think I hope with that.

00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:10.000
Suggest is that it's both of ours and neither of ours,

00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:11.000
that these ideas.

00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:13.000
Aren't owned by either of us.

00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:19.000
And.

00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:20.000
You know,

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.000
particularly we're looking at the column Colona where work here.

00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:24.000
Certainly not.

00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.000
That idea is certainly not owned by me. And.

00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:29.000
And had it not been for working with Omar on.

00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:31.000
On this project and for this dish,

00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:32.000
I wouldn't be making this work.

00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.000
Right.

00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:35.000
What about you on my idea?

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:43.000
Take on you.

00:32:43.000 --> 00:32:45.000
Who can make art, how collaboration fits into this,

00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:47.000
and specifically the two of you collaborating on something like this,

00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:50.000
that draws from these historical precedents.

00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:51.000
I think.

00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:52.000
Authenticity is complicated.

00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:58.000
I think it's a word that is now currently being overused.

00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:00.000
When you think about authenticity and the root we're being authorship

00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:03.000
does this.

00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:04.000
There should be a,

00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:08.000
a distinction between creativity and ownership.

00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:10.000
There's nothing more authentic needs a human to humanity.

00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:12.000
Then creativity.

00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:18.000
That is really what separates us from.

00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:20.000
Other species among other things,

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.000
but to be able to write your own name,

00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:23.000
To be able to create art.

00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:24.000
To be able to contemplate.

00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:28.000
Your environment.

00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:31.000
Those are all either femoral feelings of,

00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:33.000
of creativity that humans occupy.

00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:35.000
So in terms of collaborating.

00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:39.000
Was anyone.

00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:48.000
I think, you know, the real word that we're looking for, that.

00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:50.000
That I've been trying not to say is appropriation.

00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:54.000
One is understanding the roots of something and

00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:55.000
exploiting, exploiting that.

00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:57.000
What took place between Greg and I.

00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:00.000
And then hopefully what's what takes place for any great

00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:01.000
collaboration.

00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:03.000
Is that there's a mutual respect.

00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:06.000
For, for the creativity and the artists involved.

00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:07.000
And the culture.

00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:08.000
If any.

00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:10.000
Which is on the phone with the case.

00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:16.000
That's been, that's been a floor.

00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:17.000
I was like, we, we,

00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:20.000
we met that and we conceded with that because I mean,

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:25.000
Just because I'm just because I'm black.

00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:27.000
Creating ideas based upon black history,

00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:28.000
doesn't make the work that I'm doing authentic.

00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:31.000
There are people who challenged me to this day about.

00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:36.000
BBQ that I serve or.

00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:41.000
The historical context that I use, but I really use history as, as.

00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:45.000
As just another means to express my perspective.

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:46.000
On one experiences.

00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:47.000
And ethnicity and race.

00:34:47.000 --> 00:35:02.000
Yeah.

00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.000
And you said something when we talked, which I thought was so great,

00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:06.000
which is, you know, talking about your specific experience you're,

00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.000
you're talking about. I'm not, you know,

00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:09.000
I'm not west African and my grandfather, wasn't a farmer.

00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:12.000
Like I have this very specific experience as you know,

00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:14.000
growing up with your mother in Philadelphia and just that.

00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.000
Just trying to drill down on like your story.

00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:17.000
Yeah, I mean,

00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:19.000
You're exactly right.

00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:22.000
To, to if I were to pursue.

00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.000
By endeavors through the past of what quote unquote authenticity is.

00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:27.000
I don't think we'd be sitting on this end right now.

00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:28.000
Yeah.

00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:30.000
Because I'd probably be making.

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:31.000
Biscuits and, you know,

00:35:31.000 --> 00:35:35.000
[Unknown] Southern Southern dishes and not, and not dishes there.

00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:36.000
Are really.

00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:39.000
Nuanced and Wrangler, when you consider black culture.

00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.000
Right.

00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:43.000
And before I move to the next question,

00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:47.000
I did just have a quick question for you, Greg, when you are re.

00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:50.000
When you are working with something like a clown or inspired dish that

00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:52.000
has this history and a story like.

00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:55.000
What is your process for research before you get in the studio?

00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:56.000
Or how, how does that work? Like what's your.

00:35:56.000 --> 00:36:07.000
How does that work before you start actually working with your hands?

00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:09.000
Well, that's kind of always on my mind,

00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:12.000
I actually teach a course on how cuisine,

00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:15.000
agriculture and ceramics have co-evolved throughout the globally. And.

00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:18.000
And various ceramic traditions and.

00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.000
I think it's a starting point for almost everything I do,

00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:23.000
which is why it was so seamless.

00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:35.000
For this project.

00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:36.000
Yeah, I mean,

00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:40.000
resources are readily available for this sort of research is a little

00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:42.000
more difficult to go to museums these days, or was when,

00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:46.000
when we were doing this and late winter of 2021.

00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:49.000
And.

00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:51.000
And I also really, I mean,

00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:53.000
since we're talking about the nature of collaboration, I, I,

00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.000
I like collaborating with all sorts of.

00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:56.000
Scholars and.

00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:58.000
Researchers and other fields.

00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:09.000
Art historians being at one of them. And.

00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:12.000
Understanding their approaches to research it and,

00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:15.000
and taking that approach before entering the studio though.

00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.000
I wouldn't say it's before it.

00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:17.000
There.

00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:19.000
It's done in tandem.

00:37:19.000 --> 00:37:22.000
It's not so linear.

00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.000
Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's kind of a back and forth to it.

00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:26.000
Like when,

00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.000
when Omar and I were looking at images of historical examples of

00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:30.000
clone.

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:31.000
Unaware shards.

00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:34.000
You know, it, we, we looked at a hole as much as we could and, and.

00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:37.000
There were discussions about material,

00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:38.000
inappropriate material.

00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.000
You know that the material that actual clonal, whereas made out of.

00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:45.000
Wouldn't last, the run of the residency and the kitchen.

00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:46.000
You know, we needed to shift.

00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:49.000
Just for practical reasons too.

00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:51.000
To a different material and then try to capture.

00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:58.000
What it was and the quality of that material.

00:37:58.000 --> 00:37:59.000
In the dish.

00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:02.000
And then the other thing I would add is that like all of the dishes I

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:06.000
made make.

00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:09.000
The idea is that they don't get in the way of the food that they

00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:21.000
support and help showcase the ideas embedded in, in the food.

00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:22.000
And so, you know,

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:24.000
you'll notice that the dish that we ended up making is,

00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:27.000
is just a singular color monochromatic where

00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:29.000
very few,

00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:31.000
if any of the shards that we researched had just one color in them.

00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:34.000
And I hope I hope what you can see in that dish is that.

00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:35.000
It helps.

00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:36.000
In the service of the food,

00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.000
just vary based on basic visual levels to not be too

00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:44.000
complicated.

00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:48.000
And I got a little far field from your question to Angela and about

00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:51.000
research, but, but I, I actually, I think the important part of that.

00:38:51.000 --> 00:38:56.000
Response may be is that it's not linear that research.

00:38:56.000 --> 00:39:00.000
Emerges from both the concept that we're pursuing,

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:04.000
but also then from.

00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:08.000
Sometimes what happens in the studio if they're mistakes or accidents

00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:10.000
or opportunities that you can only really.

00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:13.000
Get to through the actual doing of these things.

00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:22.000
Yeah. I mean, that's how, and I, you know,

00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:24.000
I was struck by when I talked to both of you for the article.

00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:25.000
And now I think you can tell you,

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:28.000
you just both seem like you've had such a smooth working relationship

00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:30.000
when you were collaborating. And was it,

00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:32.000
was it so easy to Mel each of your visions?

00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:33.000
You know,

00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:36.000
were there ever any disagreements and how did you handle them or were

00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:39.000
you just always kind of moving in the same sort of frequency,

00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:44.000
you know, are there Omar?

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:47.000
And I also wondered if it was easier to collaborate with someone when

00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:48.000
they're not in your discipline, you know, is it,

00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:52.000
would it be harder to collaborate with a chef Omar and versus a

00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:54.000
Potter? I don't know if you had thoughts on just.

00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:55.000
You know, we're there.

00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:57.000
Bumps in the road or how did you get over them or how have you

00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.000
collaborated with other, you know,

00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:00.000
in contrast to how you've collaborated with other people?

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.000
I mean, I think that we're definitely.

00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.000
I don't know if there were disagreements, but.

00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:07.000
Sure disagreements. There were.

00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:11.000
There were varying ideas around, I mean, in particular, the Sable,

00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:12.000
the clot aware on the floor there.

00:40:12.000 --> 00:40:28.000
The set in the gallery.

00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:32.000
It was a conversation, various several conversation that we had,

00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:34.000
I think from the very beginning into how that was going to be

00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:36.000
displayed, whether it should be on the wall, on the floor.

00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:39.000
We went with the word flag always comes to mind when I think about

00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.000
black experience. And so the, that,

00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:44.000
that wording kind of helped create the shape that we went with. But.

00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:46.000
That's just one example of, you know,

00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:47.000
several different conversations that, I mean,

00:40:47.000 --> 00:40:50.000
I think at one point there was a conversation around it being shaped

00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:53.000
around the, the silhouette of like my body on the ground.

00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:56.000
And then like what that image would, what kind of like conjure.

00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:57.000
And one's mind when they saw it.

00:40:57.000 --> 00:40:59.000
And then that's something that was something that.

00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:01.000
I think a misunderstanding is a better word there in terms of like,

00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:02.000
this is where culture classes.

00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:04.000
I think like actually exist.

00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:06.000
Where it meant something completely different to me than it did to

00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:07.000
Greg.

00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:09.000
When an outline of a dead.

00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:12.000
It was like of like the outline of a dead body.

00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:14.000
I have a deadline body that did not make me feel very comfortable,

00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:16.000
but he felt like it was powerful because it represented myself.

00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:17.000
And like, to me, myself,

00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:20.000
And the silhouette represents.

00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.000
Any black deaths, you know? So like it's, it's things like that, that.

00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:25.000
In collaboration.

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:27.000
You can't be afraid of being wrong.

00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:30.000
I mean, I don't think that you should be afraid of being wrong.

00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.000
If you're not collaborating, but most,

00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:33.000
most people are seeking perfection. And I think.

00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:36.000
I think I can speak for both of us.

00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:37.000
You kind of just touched on it, Greg,

00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:39.000
and that perfection was never a goal.

00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:41.000
If you look at the plates, if you look at the nature of this work,

00:41:41.000 --> 00:41:55.000
We weren't trying to achieve.

00:41:55.000 --> 00:41:57.000
Any level of perfection? I think there was a, there was a,

00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:00.000
a consideration for serviceability, like whether or not these were,

00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:02.000
these plates were practical for serving in a,

00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:04.000
in a high bar and restaurants. I just don't mark.

00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:06.000
That's that stuff, high standards for just restaurant service.

00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:07.000
But beyond that,

00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:10.000
it was truly about how to achieve that serviceability while.

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:12.000
Still applying.

00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:13.000
The research.

00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:16.000
The creativity and the knowledge that we have and the curiosity.

00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:17.000
That means,

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:19.000
continue to have and have all of that represented in the service.

00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:27.000
Yeah, I.

00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:29.000
My favorite people are able to say, I don't know which I think Greg,

00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:30.000
you said during this, like, I think,

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.000
I don't know is a very satisfying answer because it leads it's

00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:36.000
confident and it leads to like, but I kind of want to find out or.

00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:38.000
You know, being open to that. And Greg you've now, Omar,

00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:40.000
I think was the second chef in medicines that you collaborated with.

00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:43.000
And I think now there've been nine total and I might have that number

00:42:43.000 --> 00:42:44.000
wrong.

00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:46.000
Well, I worked with four.

00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:47.000
Okay. So.

00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:50.000
Omar, Johnny and Victoria.

00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:51.000
And then there, there were five,

00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:54.000
five more in the second season through late spring in the summer.

00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:55.000
I worked with, but not directly. I.

00:42:55.000 --> 00:43:00.000
It didn't make the work.

00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.000
And, you know, just to go back to what Omar said about being wrong.

00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:05.000
I think.

00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:08.000
In a healthy collaboration. You're not afraid to say stuff.

00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:09.000
Or to.

00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:11.000
I have ideas and suggest directions.

00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:16.000
That that might not work or that might be.

00:43:16.000 --> 00:43:18.000
Might not be comfortable for the other person.

00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:20.000
And then on the other side of that,

00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:25.000
Your collaborator.

00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:28.000
One of us is also then not afraid to say, well, no,

00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:30.000
that's just a terrible idea. And here's why I think so.

00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:31.000
And.

00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:33.000
I think that's really healthy. And so, you know, we get.

00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:37.000
Distilled the workout to these three.

00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.000
Objects of these three groups of objects for the three dishes.

00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:41.000
You know, but there were.

00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:46.000
At least.

00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:47.000
Tenfold,

00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:52.000
the number of ideas that we explored that just didn't work as well.

00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:55.000
And having that comfort that we have with each other in being able to

00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:56.000
discuss.

00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:59.000
Ideas and being honest with one another with each other.

00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:01.000
I think.

00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:04.000
Really helped the collaboration.

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:07.000
It'd be a success.

00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:10.000
I have a sense that just generally.

00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:11.000
It's culturally speaking,

00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:23.000
it seems like it's harder for people to do that.

00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:24.000
You know,

00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:27.000
to be honest with each other in a way that might be viewed as

00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:30.000
negative. I mean, I don't think honesty is negative, but I mean,

00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:31.000
that's, I think,

00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:33.000
I think the fact that you guys can be honest with each other and

00:44:33.000 --> 00:44:34.000
you're comfortable that.

00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:36.000
Led to so much of this, but do you find that.

00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:38.000
You find that most artists, you know,

00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:40.000
like are able to do that or people. I mean, that's,

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:42.000
that's a huge thing to have that kind of intimacy and,

00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:44.000
and go from there. Like.

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:46.000
It's like a marriage or relationship or something, you know?

00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:47.000
Yeah.

00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:48.000
Yeah, go ahead, sir.

00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:58.000
Yeah, it's so important now that I'd like, when I.

00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:00.000
When I set out to collaborate with someone,

00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:01.000
that's like the first thing I talk about with them, it's like,

00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:04.000
just like, you can say anything to me. If you hate what I'm doing,

00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:06.000
if it's just like terrible, just say it.

00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:11.000
And then we'll shift gears and.

00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:13.000
So I really encourage I'm. In fact,

00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:16.000
without that it's not worth pursuing because it's just not real.

00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:18.000
There's the authenticity that you're talking about earlier. Omar,

00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:20.000
it's not authentic without that honesty.

00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:21.000
Sure I.

00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:28.000
I think.

00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:29.000
In regards to collaborating with the chef.

00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:31.000
I think there's a lot less collaboration.

00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:34.000
When chefs talk about collaboration is usually two chefs coming

00:45:34.000 --> 00:45:37.000
together to make separate dishes for one meal and all.

00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:38.000
They don't always come across as cohesive.

00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:40.000
And to me, that's not, that's not true collaboration.

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:41.000
That's just two people.

00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:43.000
It's more opportunity than it is collaboration.

00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:54.000
I think that between artists it's quite different.

00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:56.000
And then just what this experience here,

00:45:56.000 --> 00:45:58.000
we achieved so much more together than I think we would have

00:45:58.000 --> 00:45:59.000
separately. Not,

00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.000
not to say that what we would have created separately would have been.

00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:03.000
It would have been received well,

00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:05.000
and we probably had an entirely different conversations,

00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:06.000
but at the same.

00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:07.000
This is a.

00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:09.000
I'm very proud of this work. It feels timeless.

00:46:09.000 --> 00:46:11.000
You know, it feels timeless like the,

00:46:11.000 --> 00:46:14.000
like the history that we discovered at the T to uncover.

00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:17.000
It's it was necessary then I think it'll continue to be necessary.

00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:20.000
And so.

00:46:20.000 --> 00:46:21.000
Th this,

00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:23.000
this collaboration with some of the proudest work that I've ever been

00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:30.000
a part of.

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.000
And on that note, I'd love to go get, look at the next slide.

00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:34.000
And this is the last collaboration we're going to look at.

00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:38.000
So this is a piece.

00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:40.000
Called symbols medicine cup. And it was a collaboration,

00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:43.000
not just between Omar and Greg, but also Omar's wife, symbols St. Out.

00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:49.000
I don't know how to pronounce her last name.

00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:50.000
And so they'll say nod,

00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:53.000
who is also a chef who actually shaped this cup with her hands and

00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:55.000
mark that X that you see.

00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:56.000
And Omar.

00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:58.000
I wondered if you could talk about the inspiration for this dish.

00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.000
There's a book there called.

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.000
He was the chapter child called doctoring women.

00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:04.000
And I just loved the story of how you even came to.

00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:07.000
Think about making this, this cup. If you wanted to talk about that.

00:47:07.000 --> 00:47:08.000
Sure.

00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:11.000
I think.

00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:13.000
I'll take back what I've just said.

00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:17.000
This might've been the most confusing aspect of our collaboration.

00:47:17.000 --> 00:47:21.000
It started out by me having this like idea of.

00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:25.000
A purely utilitarian cup that's used for medicine.

00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:31.000
And when I expressed that to Greg.

00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:34.000
He had no clue what I was talking about and like in my head, like,

00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:38.000
but it's right there. You can see it, but.

00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:40.000
I can just say, Greg, like, weren't you like, should it have a handle?

00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:46.000
Does it look, you're trying to visualize it sort of, what is this cup?

00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:47.000
Me. I, well,

00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:49.000
I definitely didn't think she didn't have a handle cause I don't love

00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.000
handles, but it, it took it.

00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:55.000
This took a lot. And I think that's why I love it so much.

00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:56.000
It really kind of.

00:47:56.000 --> 00:48:01.000
It took a lot of mental exercise to understand what.

00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:03.000
Why? Like, why, so what, you know, why was it,

00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:05.000
why did it take a lot of mental exercise to get to this concept?

00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:12.000
Omar, can you just briefly.

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.000
Maybe not so briefly, just explain to me or to the,

00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:16.000
to the group, what.

00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:19.000
What it was, you told me you wanted to serve in it.

00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:21.000
So, well, I have to touch on the book then.

00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:24.000
Yeah.

00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:26.000
So the book is called working cures.

00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:27.000
And working cures.

00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:31.000
As an academic study on.

00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:34.000
On several practices.

00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:36.000
Of curing healing.

00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:41.000
And, and doctoring.

00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:44.000
And plantation communities pretty much from the perspective of those

00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:45.000
who were enslaved.

00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:58.000
So the chapter here, doctrine women.

00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:00.000
Featured a woman named Elsie,

00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:03.000
which is extremely important because it's almost,

00:49:03.000 --> 00:49:06.000
you almost never read a text about enslaved individuals where an

00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:08.000
individual is actually named by name.

00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:10.000
It's almost just like this person or that person or whatever.

00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:12.000
If they call them a person at all and not just a slave.

00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:16.000
So the fact that this was a black woman who was being described as a

00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:20.000
doctor and being named Elsie was extremely important to me.

00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:22.000
And it just so happens that my wife SciVal is also a children's book

00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:25.000
author, and she wrote a children's book by the name of Elfie.

00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:29.000
So reading that immediately brought me to her civils from Haiti

00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:31.000
and.

00:49:31.000 --> 00:49:34.000
And Haitian culture of voodoo and blue medicinal practices and

00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:43.000
spiritual healing practices is still very much alive.

00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:46.000
As, as, as it's described here, and this book,

00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:50.000
the doctoring practices that were held by LC that were practiced by

00:49:50.000 --> 00:49:52.000
LC happened under the.

00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:55.000
The American practice of M as a similar, similar name who do.

00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:57.000
Not it's related, but unrelated to.

00:49:57.000 --> 00:49:58.000
What's a very important.

00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:02.000
They're not the same.

00:50:02.000 --> 00:50:03.000
But who do,

00:50:03.000 --> 00:50:07.000
which is also colloquially known in the south as group work is how

00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:09.000
she doctor and nurse people back to health.

00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:12.000
One of those things with burnt whiskey and burnt whiskey is what I

00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:14.000
asked was, will be served in this cup.

00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:16.000
Which is a concoction of whiskey. That's been.

00:50:16.000 --> 00:50:17.000
I think in like in front of like, [unknown].

00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:24.000
And burn off the alcohol.

00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:25.000
She added different routes to it.

00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:27.000
And so we created a concoction of a whiskey where we didn't actually

00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:43.000
burn off the alcohol, but we did add.

00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:47.000
We did add herbs and root to the mixture and served it in

00:50:47.000 --> 00:50:50.000
this cup. And if you look in carefully in the book,

00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:53.000
there's an X marking on the underside of one of the materials.

00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:57.000
There is an X marking on the underside of the cup that we produced,

00:50:57.000 --> 00:50:58.000
which was formed.

00:50:58.000 --> 00:50:59.000
By Civil's hand.

00:50:59.000 --> 00:51:02.000
Very important to me because of the name and the naming of LC in the

00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:09.000
book.

00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.000
So the heat, the, the,

00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:14.000
the presence of a black woman, human,

00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:16.000
who was delivering health.

00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:19.000
And so the idea of behind civil safe in the cover of [unknown] was

00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:23.000
that that imprint would be what was delivering this

00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:24.000
whiskey to.

00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:28.000
To the customer at, at Durness stone barns. So the X marking,

00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:29.000
we use that as,

00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:32.000
as the signature for this entire collection of work,

00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:34.000
because of, because of what we discovered here.

00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:35.000
It's bookwork and cures.

00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:37.000
And civil and civil or your wife did, you know,

00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:39.000
she shaped the cup and she also marked the X and yes.

00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:40.000
Greg.

00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:43.000
Had you ever collaborated in a way where someone else was forming the

00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:45.000
actual piece, was that new to you? Or like, you know,

00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:47.000
what role did you play then? And in this piece,

00:51:47.000 --> 00:51:50.000
I think that I have, I'd have to think about how, but.

00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:54.000
Worked in that way before.

00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:55.000
So, I mean,

00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:59.000
you can see that it's a bit of a challenge to try to get those ideas

00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:00.000
into.

00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:01.000
Less than three inch tall cup.

00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:02.000
Right.

00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:03.000
Little chunk of porcelain.

00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:06.000
And.

00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:17.000
I don't really remember how.

00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:21.000
How I think it started by thinking about having the person

00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:23.000
holding the cup, who's drinking out of it.

00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:29.000
Being able be able to touch and hold hands with Sibyl.

00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:32.000
Using the cup as the medium that that interaction passes through.

00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:34.000
So I wanted.

00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:35.000
To see if we could.

00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.000
Actually get Simple's hands in this.

00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:51.000
Finished object and the way to do that.

00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:52.000
At,

00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:56.000
I think was to just have this lump of clay and then have civil shape

00:52:56.000 --> 00:53:00.000
it. And then we, I made a mold of it and then cast it in this very,

00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:02.000
very dark, almost black porcelain.

00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:04.000
That's unglazed on the outside so that if you,

00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:06.000
if you feel and look closely enough,

00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:09.000
you can see some of civils fingerprints in each of the cups.

00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:13.000
And so the presence of.

00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:15.000
Her hand. I love these, these series of images.

00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:18.000
You see the image on the bottom, right? Is, is of civil making the ex.

00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:20.000
On the bottom of the cup.

00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:22.000
And you can see on the phone there, there's the image,

00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:28.000
the research image that is on the top of the screen.

00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:30.000
And it's a, it's a really small object.

00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:32.000
It's like two and three quarter inches tall.

00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:43.000
And you can hold it.

00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:47.000
In your hand and just sort of wrap your hand around the entire cup and

00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:49.000
really, I think there's,

00:53:49.000 --> 00:53:52.000
I hope there's that connection there with the hand of the maker.

00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:53.000
That's about the shape of this.

00:53:53.000 --> 00:53:54.000
Form.

00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:58.000
I don't know. I think it's it's.

00:53:58.000 --> 00:53:59.000
Even though it is a very small object.

00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:02.000
We cast a whole series of these for,

00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:03.000
for service at stone barns.

00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:05.000
I think because of that size.

00:54:05.000 --> 00:54:13.000
It's it's potent.

00:54:13.000 --> 00:54:14.000
You know,

00:54:14.000 --> 00:54:17.000
if there's a density in the meeting of this object that I think is

00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:21.000
enhanced by how small and precious it, it, it came out to be.

00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:22.000
I also, I would add.

00:54:22.000 --> 00:54:25.000
That the material being porcelain was really important.

00:54:25.000 --> 00:54:28.000
I think in the success of this piece, I think it's just functions.

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:30.000
As Omar said, I'm in the kitchen better because it's more durable,

00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:37.000
but also.

00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:40.000
Cups in particular meant to be picked up and held in the hand.

00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:44.000
And Omar, was it a room temperature drink or was it hot?

00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:45.000
It was room temperature.

00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:46.000
Room temperature.

00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:56.000
There's a particular density that porcelain has that, you know,

00:54:56.000 --> 00:54:58.000
Takes on the temperature of the liquid that's in it.

00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:02.000
And that is then transferred into the hand before it's actually drunk

00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:05.000
by the, by the person who's holding the cup.

00:55:05.000 --> 00:55:07.000
So, yeah, so I don't remember. Maybe you can,

00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:13.000
you can tell us what my first idea was for this.

00:55:13.000 --> 00:55:15.000
But it wasn't this and this really, you know,

00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:18.000
took a lot of back and forth. And I love that because it was so much.

00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:23.000
Joy in this struggle, I think to figure out how to make this.

00:55:23.000 --> 00:55:25.000
Yeah, I don't, I don't remember what the,

00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:27.000
I don't think there was an original idea. We were just like,

00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:28.000
I think.

00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:30.000
In my head.

00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:39.000
If I had to just.

00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:43.000
I guess my head was centered around like the civil war and like

00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:44.000
10 cops and, and medicine. And.

00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:46.000
And things like, like, like, you know,

00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:53.000
set up in these makeshift hospitals.

00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:54.000
And things like that,

00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:58.000
but it wasn't really until civil stepped into the picture and we just

00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:02.000
laid clay in front of her and it really only took two.

00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:05.000
To two rounds of attempts for, for this.

00:56:05.000 --> 00:56:08.000
To take shape the first.

00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:10.000
I think he, yes, he actually like made a cup.

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:14.000
I left the room and I came back.

00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:16.000
That won't be unintended. In fact, I hired that.

00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:17.000
I have that for you guys.

00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:23.000
You know,

00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:26.000
And so I, I realized I didn't explain the process well enough and,

00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:27.000
and.

00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:30.000
And so we started over in the second shot was I thought.

00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:31.000
Captured it, it was perfect.

00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:33.000
Had she ever done that before? Had she ever.

00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:41.000
You know, done anything like this before Omar.

00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:43.000
I mean, I don't, I don't think so with any intention of,

00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:46.000
we both played around with like clay at home with, I just have stuff.

00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:49.000
But.

00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:51.000
I think there's something to be said about the intangible and the

00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:53.000
creation of this piece, you know?

00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:58.000
Because of kind of.

00:56:58.000 --> 00:57:02.000
The re the research was applied to the personal and,

00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:04.000
and the personal was, was civil.

00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:05.000
And as soon as she stepped into the pitcher,

00:57:05.000 --> 00:57:07.000
So it wasn't even really about.

00:57:07.000 --> 00:57:11.000
Greg and I anymore.

00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:12.000
You need to get the cerebral kind of,

00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:15.000
or you need to kind of disrupt the sort of overthinking or.

00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:16.000
Yeah. I mean, I don't,

00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:18.000
I'm not even sure if it was overthinking or over consideration.

00:57:18.000 --> 00:57:21.000
I just think that she held.

00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:24.000
The the she held.

00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:27.000
Whatever.

00:57:27.000 --> 00:57:29.000
Energy that turned this piece into what it was.

00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:31.000
Greg and I were going back and forth.

00:57:31.000 --> 00:57:32.000
With me trying to explain.

00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:35.000
And.

00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:37.000
The idea wasn't really like.

00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:39.000
It was there, but it wasn't, it wasn't concrete.

00:57:39.000 --> 00:57:40.000
We're porcelain.

00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:45.000
On attendance.

00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:58.000
For for, for great. I think there was.

00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:01.000
You know, the, the practical approach to create house, sorry,

00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:02.000
I'm outside creative, but then the artists brand,

00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:05.000
I don't think that necessarily translated, translating what I saw.

00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:07.000
And then what w what actually emerged.

00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:11.000
Was not what I saw at all. So I really think that civil war.

00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:12.000
Just.

00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:15.000
She carried that the spirit of what this needed to be. And.

00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:17.000
There's something to be said about.

00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:19.000
The size I'd love you.

00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:21.000
You mentioned the size about three different times.

00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:22.000
Because it's.

00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:23.000
Because of the exactness of the size, which was,

00:58:23.000 --> 00:58:25.000
I don't think was actually exact at.

00:58:25.000 --> 00:58:30.000
When we think about it.

00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:32.000
The intentionality, the,

00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:35.000
the notes of the human hand are so present.

00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:37.000
That that marking on the under side.

00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:39.000
We can only pour, but so much liquid into the cup.

00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:41.000
The transfer of heat.

00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:47.000
Or a temperature like, like he described.

00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:50.000
If it, if it was bigger or smaller and in any direction, I'm not sure.

00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:53.000
If all of that will be received in the way.

00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:55.000
That it was. And so I, I think.

00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:56.000
What I'm saying is that.

00:58:56.000 --> 00:58:59.000
Thank God for.

00:58:59.000 --> 00:59:07.000
For this, because I think that this is largely just the intangible.

00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:10.000
The final question. I just would love to know if you, to, you know,

00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:19.000
since you've collaborated with each other.

00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:20.000
Did you, you know,

00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:23.000
what did you learn about each other's process or experience that maybe

00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:24.000
you continue to, you know,

00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:26.000
that that affected the way you approached your own art or the way you

00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:27.000
make garden?

00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:29.000
And are you guys still collaborating or in touch? Share?

00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:30.000
I had a section for a cycle,

00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:32.000
but you learn from each other that you took, you know,

00:59:32.000 --> 00:59:34.000
that you still have with you and yeah.

00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:35.000
What your relationship is like now?

00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:36.000
Omar. I'll go first.

00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:38.000
What I love about Omar is that when I,

00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:39.000
when I have an idea and share it with him,

00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:41.000
If you never answer.

00:59:41.000 --> 00:59:45.000
You said, let me think about that. And then it's like bays.

00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:47.000
Later that we talk about it.

00:59:47.000 --> 00:59:49.000
So there's this real deep consideration of ideas.

00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:56.000
I mean, you take.

00:59:56.000 --> 00:59:59.000
You know, even if it's maybe a whim that I share with you,

00:59:59.000 --> 01:00:05.000
which I'm not sure I did, but you, you take it. So.

01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:07.000
I think about it so deeply.

01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:10.000
And I really respect and respond to that in a way,

01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:12.000
like sometimes I think I answered too quickly.

01:00:12.000 --> 01:00:15.000
And, and that, and I think w yeah.

01:00:15.000 --> 01:00:17.000
So anyway, so there's that,

01:00:17.000 --> 01:00:19.000
and then hopefully we'll continue to work together. Yeah.

01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:25.000
And Omar was or something like, you know, why.

01:00:25.000 --> 01:00:26.000
W what,

01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:28.000
what would you take away from the experience of working with Greg that

01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:29.000
sort of struck you,

01:00:29.000 --> 01:00:35.000
or you kept as part of your practice or you want to do in the future?

01:00:35.000 --> 01:00:37.000
But I certainly want to continue to work together. I mean, we've,

01:00:37.000 --> 01:00:39.000
we've had several conversations,

01:00:39.000 --> 01:00:41.000
post residency that's materialized like absolutely nothing, but,

01:00:41.000 --> 01:00:42.000
but at least.

01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:44.000
We're still in conversation about stuff, which is exciting.

01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:46.000
Working working with Greg.

01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:47.000
Kind of like,

01:00:47.000 --> 01:00:50.000
I've described myself as an artist that people.

01:00:50.000 --> 01:00:54.000
It felt like validating work, working with reminiscent security.

01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:58.000
Just because we didn't mention.

01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:00.000
Darn. This was that I also made like six other.

01:01:00.000 --> 01:01:03.000
Pieces of art.

01:01:03.000 --> 01:01:09.000
While collaborating with collaborating and creating the menu.

01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:11.000
For a stone barns. And you know,

01:01:11.000 --> 01:01:13.000
I'm not always the most confident person in the things that I do

01:01:13.000 --> 01:01:14.000
because like,

01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:16.000
The school for art and like I've never showed any galleries or

01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:22.000
anything like that.

01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:25.000
And then this event was stone barns.

01:01:25.000 --> 01:01:28.000
We actually created a gallery for the ideas of this menu to live on

01:01:28.000 --> 01:01:30.000
their own. And it was just a very intense.

01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:34.000
Period period of time and, and my life personally, and this,

01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:36.000
this collaboration.

01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:37.000
And this work being like,

01:01:37.000 --> 01:01:40.000
so exemplary of all the different aspects of like what went into this

01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:41.000
menu.

01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:43.000
Again, I'm going to set it earlier on.

01:01:43.000 --> 01:01:45.000
I'm very proud of this feels very.

01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:48.000
Very very validating as a creative person. So thank you.

01:01:48.000 --> 01:01:49.000
For.

01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:51.000
So that helped me feel that way.

01:01:51.000 --> 01:02:02.000
Oh, oh me right back at ya.

01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:04.000
Well, thanks so much to both of you.

01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:06.000
I think it was great seeing you and talking to you again.

01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:09.000
I think Rachel is going to step back into close the show.

01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:10.000
Hi. Hi everyone.

01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:22.000
Thanks so much.

01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:25.000
To everyone for joining us for this conversation. Thanks so much,

01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:29.000
Greg and Omar and Angela for, for being here for taking the time to,

01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:32.000
to kind of do a deep dive into, to your collaboration and,

01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:33.000
and kind of how.

01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:37.000
How it's sort of shaped you both, you know, as, as artists and, and,

01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:38.000
and creators.

01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:41.000
So we really appreciate your time and we appreciate everybody's time.

01:02:41.000 --> 01:02:42.000
Again, this,

01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:45.000
this recording will be available for future viewing and we'll be

01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:47.000
saving the chat.

01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:48.000
And we'll have a whole slew of resources.